With 17 Audie awards under his belt, more than any other male VO in single-voiced titles, Simon Vance is an Audiobook legend.
Join Toby Ricketts and Simon Vance for an in-depth chat about the world of Audiobooks, and how a spectacular and improbable coincidence brought them together!
Find out about Simon Vance's early career,
how he ended up being one of the worlds foremost audiobook narrators,
how to perform differently as a narrator versus a stage actor,
what the trajectory and shape of an audiobook narration career looks like,
how to get experience before entering the world of audiobook narration VO,
the politics of Audiobooks,
Some behind the scenes stories of the Audible 'Sandman' series,
Some more behind the scenes stories about the Dune audiobook series,
Tips for maintaining characters,
Simon takes us on a technical tour of his home studio booth,
A discussion of home studios vs professional studios,
Why he enjoys the work of narration.
Enjoy! Visit simon's website at www.simonvance.com
Here is a transcript of the interview:
Toby Ricketts
Hello voice nerds. This is Toby Ricketts and this is VO life my monthly chat with people who are big in the voiceover world. We've got movers and shakers from all over from agents to actors and everything in between. So welcome. It's good to have you along. Very excited about today's chat, because I'm speaking with one of the biggest names in audio books today. He has out narrated over 1000 titles, been nominated for 40 audio awards, won 17 of them, he's in the audible Hall of Fame. I'm going to just keep going on because I want to get across how ridiculous it is. And it's got the most audio nominations for a single male narrator on titles of anyone. So it's my great pleasure to introduce Simon Vance to the podcast.
Simon Vance
Hi, Toby, nice to meet you.
Toby Ricketts
It's very nice to meet you as well. Just starting off with the one have you come across those coincidences in life? And you're like, what were the chances of that happening. And I just want to spell out exactly how we got in touch because it's one of the biggest coincidences that's ever occurred to me. So the scene is that I've just listened to the Sandman series on Audible, of which you play a part you've got a character role in that. And, and I wanted to see the film dune that was coming up. And so I thought, well, I'll I'll put, I want to read the text. So I don't so I can see, you know, the movies, I'm gonna listen to the audio, but before that, which also happened to narrate I hadn't quite started yet. And then my mum, who lives here in New Zealand with me said, Oh, I caught up with a yet an old friend that I haven't seen since like the 1960s the other day, because I saw him on Facebook. And he mentioned that he was in some sort of voiceover thing. And I was like, Oh, who's that? I might know his name. And she said, Simon Vance. And I said, that name, because I said, Where have I heard that before? And then it just so happened that you guys have caught up at exactly the moment that I've been listening to all your stuff on on Audible. So I was just blown away by what a coincidence it was, and what a small world we live in,
Simon Vance
was extraordinary. Well, it's got in a way it got smaller the pandemic help because of sort of people having more time to spend on computers and Facebook and so on. And that's what happened. I think I posted something and your mum saw it and said only you this island dance that we used to play with on the Brighton Beach, consult Dean and stuff. We had cats together and our families were very close. And I kept in touch with a couple of people. There's a girl Penny, who was a great friend of your mom's too. And and of course, you've brought your uncles I was gonna say your brother's No, that's your mom's brothers. That's what they used to come over to our house all the time, our birthday parties and everything else. Amazing. But she got in touch with me and said, and I said, Yeah, let's chat. So we got on and I mean, she's been over there for since the early 70s In New Zealand, and I've been in California for almost exactly 20 years now. 20 years next week, I think. 40 years. At some point, it
Toby Ricketts
doesn't really matter, does it?
Simon Vance
Oh, but anyway, we got in touch a nice fun chat and it was so much fun catching up and then you send me an email. And the funny thing is, it came to me, Toby Ricketts. You know, my mom. Ricketts Ricketts. I don't know any record. Oh, I know New Zealand. That was to Somerville.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, of course. Absolutely. There was the connection. It was just it's amazing how these things come full circle. So you obviously you grew up in Brighton in the UK as a as did I great place to grow up. In terms of audio Becca, like, you know, when when you were growing up? Because lots of people think oh, you've always you've always done audio books. Obviously, you've had an interest from a young age. And you kind of did but there wasn't really much around at that time. Right? There was sort of vinyl records with sort of Richard Burton reading things was what other kind of influences did you have from a young age? Oh,
Simon Vance
the funny thing is, I mean, audiobooks was never going to be a career of mine. It was never a choice. This wasn't an active choice that's sort of backed into it. And became good at it by accident. But I was we growing up in England, born in the 50s. So radio, TV in the 60s, there was a lot of storytelling. Now listening to the voice on the radio, watching, listen, well, there was watch with Mother, listen with mother and re watch with mother lunchtimes, when you're really young Jacko normally was an afternoon show on the BBC. It's around 5pm 15 minutes of an actor sitting there telling stories. So that was an influence on me. I also happen to be very good at reading around during class being able to read and sort of I can have, remember a particular time reading I think, might have been a Joseph Conrad or something and just getting lost in it was about 14 or 15. But never really thinking this is what I'm going to do. I was into being an actor for a lot of time, but never took that seriously until I was in my 30s because it seemed to be a question refer? Well, it was something people played out, it wasn't a serious job. That was my original opinion. My parents were both in the medical profession, and grandparents had been and so on. So I was all set for maybe looking at that nearly became a civil engineering. We talk about that later. But I sort of moved away from it. But I ended up having friends at school Grammar School, in Brighton High School in the States, whatever it was in my teens, whose whose dad worked in the local radio station, and I started in radio. And then I went to London, and joined radio for the National speech channel at the BBC speech based. And he went there, and I followed him, because he went a few years before me, and I thought, Well, if he can do it, I can do it. And it seemed like fun, I enjoyed it. But um, and while I was in London, the RNIB, he worked for the RNIB, this friend who'd gone to radio for before me, he worked for the RNIB Talking Book service for the blind reading books for them for charity. And when I got to London, he'd left he'd gone somewhere else, but I was on my own, and I had a lot of spare time. And I thought, what did he do to fill his time, and I'll do that. So I started reading books for the blind. In the 80s eyeglasses, 1983, I first went up to London, and I started reading for the blind in one afternoon, a week for the whole nine years that I was up there, working for the BBC. And when I came to the States, I was determined to be an actor and I was in, but I didn't go to New York or LA, I was based in San Francisco, and there was a really only theater. So I did a lot of work in theater. But my then brother in law knew somebody who worked in audio books. And if you want to add some extra money to audiobooks, so I did some audiobooks. Or I got signed by this one company, Blackstone audiobooks. And I've been with them ever since. And that was the beginning. But I never ever saw it as a career path. I think that's
Toby Ricketts
something that a lot of my other voiceover artists, including myself, have remarked on that the fact that they always kind of knew it existed as this kind of, you know, Hallowed, you know, imagine being able to, you know, use your voice and get paid for it. I'm because I'm from a radio background as well. And, and there was always a sense that there were these jobs, but it wasn't kind of a real job, like I couldn't, you know, I couldn't go for that. I don't even know how to get into it. And it does seem to be a shared thing that you do, you gain skills along your life, and then suddenly, it just falls into place. And you're doing it and suddenly, like I'm doing it this is this is amazing, which might be different these days. Because there are so many more people, I think wanting to be voice artists these days, that there are more parts that are sort of just laid out for this sort of career that it is a valid career path. But at the same time, there's so much more work around for things like explainer videos and genres that simply didn't exist sort of, you know, five years ago. So it's interesting that, you know, it has changed this whole career and how to get into it.
Simon Vance
Yeah, I mean, as I say, for me, I sort of backed into it accidentally, that worked for me, because I have issues with, you know, wanting to be good at something, if I'm going to be a success at it, I need to be good at it. And I didn't need to be good at audiobooks. I was reading for the blind when I started it. That was my apprenticeship. And I came over and I thought, well, I can do this won't lead to anything. Whereas with acting, it was always a bit of a struggle, because you go into a casting or whatever, what do they want? What do they want? You're always thinking what's what can I do to make an impact. And I never had to do that with audiobooks, because it was never a goal. I got a good friend, Scott brick, who's another very successful audiobook narrator here in California, in Los Angeles, and he talks about wanting to be an audiobook narrator from a young age, younger than me, but he was, you know, that was his goal. Once he recognized it was it was a thing, he decided to go for it. So he took a career path. But me, it's always been a little bit accidental that it wasn't until about 15 years ago that I finally accepted that I was good at it. And I could make it a career and actually backed off doing theater and stuff like that. I'm back in. I'm in Los Angeles now and looking at working in film and TV at some point along the way. But that's yeah, I'm enjoying the audio books have been very good to me, and I've enjoyed them, but it's a complete surprise. But as you say, these days audio books, it's got a much higher profile. You know, I was working it in the 90s and it was just cassettes, then, you know, people driving along with 25 cassettes beside them and slipping one in the car each time and popular thing.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, sales reps that were driving 1000s of miles a week.
Simon Vance
truckers are a huge audience. But you it wasn't until Steve Jobs or whoever the mp3 players and Steve Jobs particularly with the iPod that suddenly it became possible to have a whole book by pressing a button, a single button and suddenly in 2000 234 the business just huge it was growing before that but it just expand
Toby Ricketts
Usually, so that would have been sort of in the middle of your sort of your, your audiobook career so far. And you noticed a real uptick in, in sort of in sales and demand for for actually reading these books.
Simon Vance
Oh, yeah, it was very often down in the early days. I mean, I started I got here in 92. I started doing books either later that year at the beginning of 93. I can't exactly remember. But I was working for Blackstone doing books here. And they're working in theater, mostly. A very good year and 95. I worked in the theater every every week. Around 97 Business dropped off, I was still with only Blackstone. And it was horrifying because I was going through a divorce and separation, not necessarily in that order separation, then divorce. And it just it was it was crippling when when they backed off sending me books, because I didn't have anything else didn't have a lot of theater at that point. And then things started coming back later on. And it was very noticeable. For me. I think I won my first award in the year 2000. Then the next couple of years, and it was, as I say, 2005 Suddenly I had a job. So I stopped doing or doing theater because theater took me away, that was rehearsals every other week and, and so on and so forth. And and some of the audiobooks I was doing in the early days required me to fly to New York or Seattle or somewhere else to do the recording in studios. Because I was mostly recording at home, which is very unusual in the early days in the 90s. There won't be any of us who did that. Yeah. And sort of surrounded by a lot of the mainstream people until they realized, actually, some of these independent guys can do it.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. Just going back on a couple of things you said there about, you know, being in the theater and also doing audiobooks. And I've just come from a weekend teaching sort of how to do voiceover and there were some theater or actors in the room. And one of the things I had to tell them was about, you know, when you are doing on stage work, you are, you know, projecting and making everything big, so that in the back seats, they can hear what you're saying. But in audiobooks, it's much more subtle. And so you have to have quite a range in terms of being an actor, and then sort of bringing that back. And, and, you know, I told them to, you know, instead of projecting to the back seats, you're basically performing for the tiny person inside the microphone. If you've got any sort of thoughts on how it differs, you know, theater acting, the audiobook? Well, yeah,
Simon Vance
I mean, for me, I was fortunate because I did do all those years of radio, and broadcasting where you were basically, I and the cliche at the time, then and probably still is, you know, imagine your grandma sitting the other side of the microphone, and you're just talking to her, like, I'm talking to you just that, you know, I'm not gonna project to you told me. Hey, Toby. Yeah. And the difference to some extent, I think, is the the amount of breath support and so on, you know, you're on stage and you've got to project you've got to be Sapele. You can't be storming around Shakespearian, like all the times, you've got to be sat on that you so you give him more support. You don't have to do that the breath control is very more nuanced in the studio. It's much gentler, and yeah,
Toby Ricketts
because the mics up everything to listen, you know, it's a very sensitive instrument.
Simon Vance
Indeed, indeed, yes. You have to be careful. And it's, it's so storytelling is so gentle
Toby Ricketts
trust exercise, in a way, isn't it? Like you're really you're creating a world and inviting someone into that world? And it's quite a responsibility, I think.
Simon Vance
Yeah, yeah. It's funny thing. I mean, I I can happily I can listen to myself. We're not you don't not listening to my not listen to my voice. I mean, there's a that's a thing you find with some new people in the industry and some older ones, perhaps, but, you know, I've got a wonderful voice, and I've listened to you can tell they're sort of enjoying the sound. I'm doing wonderful things with orders. And, but I'm listening, I'm listening to the story. So I'm, I'm actually I found myself I wouldn't necessarily I don't coach people. And I wouldn't coach them to say, well, you know, see how your story sounds to yourself. But there is a way in which I'm listening. On some level, I'm listening to myself, am I making sense? Does this serve the story or not? And I can tell when sort of when it becomes false when I'm drifting or, or pushing or, or whatever. And so that while you know, you're putting the audience out there, or the one person you're talking to, that one person is in my head at the same time? I'm sorry, in some strange way.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, yeah. Before we leave the, the sort of, you know, your history and how you got into audiobooks. It's like I see, I definitely see that there's a something in common with my career and in terms of you know, you were able to do many years of practice. In a real situation you're reading for the blind, so you're basically doing audiobooks but without the pay, but getting that practice, practice practice which we I was talking about in voiceover training. And then it's a kind of a slow start, it's a very slow curve up, you get some books. And then as soon as something like an award happens, it seems to sort of go exponential. And then it's sort of like the world is your oyster. And you, you, you you learn at an exponential rate. Would you say that? That's sort of how it's happened then? And what happens after that? Does it sort of plateau? Does it keep on going? Is it can you just do what you want? At that point?
Simon Vance
I'm on the downward slope. It's, it's really interesting thing, it's one of the things I have a problem with, when I'm when people ask me, you know, how do you how do you work? How do you get in the industry and so on and so forth? How does it grow? Because I came into it in a different way. I way that people don't, as you explained it, you know, I did my apprenticeship for eight years, and there was no pressure, no pressure at all. These days, you come into the industry, and it's almost like you got to be hot, the moment you open your mouth, you know, people rush into books, and they take on more than they can handle in. And it's, it's, it's almost like with with auditioning, well, you get sort of one chance as it were. And if you if you don't nail it, the first time, the fear is, you're not going to get a second chance. And I had a lot of chances to nail that to grow and stuff. And I may, or may have had a gift to begin with, you know, so So I was fortunate in that respect. So I didn't need to learn, although I have heard some of my books from the 80s. There's a couple. I did a RNIB that they sold to Audible UK, and they're available, but I made sure they put them under a different name. And I'm not going to tell you what it is. Because I've heard Okay, that was a beginners voice. listen to voices books I've done 20 years ago, and there's a slight, you know, I said little squirmy Enos about it. Well, that's a good
Toby Ricketts
thing, in a way, isn't it? Because I mean, if you're not if you're not getting better, and it's nice to see the progression,
Simon Vance
in terms of how it how it went, you know, for me, it was again, no pressure for the years that I was working here commercially, because it was something filling in the time or a little bit of money on the side, because acting on the stage was my thing. And it was very gentle. And it started to take off, I won the first award, it was one of these earphone awards about a pile of them here, they kind of this the spare room and fold. Let me just go into the wall here. audiofile magazine, which is a US magazine that does a great job of promoting and reviewing, I send these out to new readers every so often couple every month or excellence. And it's just a nice alarm to have. And I got my first one in 2000. And and I wouldn't have said I noticed a big change that I won my first od in 2006. And that's the sort of the Oscars of the audiobook industry over here. Pretend
Toby Ricketts
I'm not quite as good.
Simon Vance
But it's very flattering. I mean, it's phenomenal. And I won my first one of five or six and it does help you with the business, the business and audiobooks as it's changed over the years it was still growing then, in 2011, or 12. Audible bought, audible was bought by Amazon. Audible had started up as being just a distributor of audio books a sort of central place on the internet that people could download them. So all the publishers sort of gave this that didn't give their stuff but they channeled it through audible. And inaudible started doing what they said they weren't going to do in the first place. And that's produced your own audiobooks. And everybody got very uptight and audible got bigger and bigger became the, you know, the elephant in the room, taking up all of all the oxygen and and then Amazon bought them and started using the unload masses of titles. They wanted everything on audio. So around 2000 Whatever it was 1112 13 they demanded of the publishers or producers rather producers, they wanted to bring in as many of these books as possible. So everybody in their grandmother got the chance to do audiobooks on the standards just dropped. It was a bad few years. In retrospect, business actually dropped off, because the main publishers, the people that I did work for and paid me in a regular union rates. They weren't putting so many books out because they are audio and took a few years to recover. And the milk amongst those narrators who came in who weren't perhaps experienced the milk, roaster chop and some extraordinarily good narrators that came from that. And I think things have leveled out now in the last few years. I think it took three or four or five, six years for the for the business to really settle. Because even given my level of award winning I was I had gaps in my lots of gaps in my schedule. I got very depressed Time's about, you know, the work, because it wasn't happening. And but it's it's come back in the last few years. And it's an it's continued to expand now, but it's all a little more sensible than it was a decade or so ago. Right. But it's been up and down, it hasn't been a direct, you know, like that. Yeah, sort of, oh, this is good, or this is bad, or this is always good. And then it's, it's sort of come up now. And I think we're on a steady trajectory. I'm, I'm having to turn down books. Now position to be, yeah, it's a good thing to be. And unfortunately, it's all others story. I've got his name names, but there's a publisher that sends me some fantasy books, which were great at the time, but they've gone on too long. They're not very well written the self published things, they got an audience. And I don't want to not be authors, because it's my God, being an author is incredible, but they're not my cup of tea. I'm locked into this series. Now, I've had a I had a 27 hour book and a 17 hour book, and I just today started another 27 alcohol for the same publisher. They're all of the same sort of nother fantasy. And I've had to turn down books from publishers I love with really good books that, you know.
Toby Ricketts
It's funny how, you know, being a, sort of a subcontractor life or being self employed, and does have such ebbs and flows. And I've had to, you know, counsel, a few sort of voiceover artists on that kind of slight word upward trajectory that you will have weeks when no one calls you. And it's not the end of the world. It's like it's the time to do your marketing. And like it does does seem to pick up as long as you put if you start putting the time in to to promoting yourself into finding new ways to work. But it can be quite disheartening, I think. And it's nice to hear from someone with so much experience that that happens to even you with the awards. You know,
Simon Vance
it's just that I remember John Cleese getting very frustrated because people were looking for John Cleese types. He goes through the career of a of an actor or something like that, you know, then it would go through various things. Give me John Cleese. And it will give me a John Cleese type. And then John Cleese is going but what about me? And I think I feared that was a time when give me somebody give me a sign advance type because him signing events is too busy. We won't have time it was a lot of assumptions on the way that sounds do business. Right? I'd have to keep going out and reminded me, you know, I got some space here. Yeah, I've got some time if you've got anything for me. But you're right. It's about communicating, being in touch with publishers and the industry as a whole and keep reminding them that you're there even at my level, you know, forget. Oh, he's okay. He doesn't need work.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right. Let's switch gears a little bit and talk about some specific projects is basically just me like having a slight fanboy because I want to peek behind the curtain. The two I mentioned at the start, which the the Sandman series from which is on Audible, which is just such an it's one of the best dramatic productions audio only dramatic practice I've ever heard this, that the the level of acting and the level of production is just it blew my mind when I was into it. So do look. If you're into the surf, then do do look it up. What was the process? Because there's a lot of dialogue in that. And I can't imagine they got everyone together in the same studio. So once that managed from afar, and was it live directed sessions, did you have to travel? How did that sort of turn out?
Simon Vance
Oh, gosh, I think a few years because I only have a few lines in the first one and add more in the second one. They're different because the second one was right in the middle of the pandemic. First one. Well, here's the thing I get on very well with the director, duck Max, producer, director and fantastic Medusa. Oh, god, he's incredible. He and I, he's a classic Skype warning. I don't he's born but he was. He went into a friend's same grammar school as a friend of mine was taught by my friends. It's a small world stuff. I mean, he could go in detail and stuff like that, but I bumped into him at at one of the audio awards. And we got chatting has a lot in common. And I also happen to know Neil Gaiman so that was that was helpful. And, and we he hired me for it. And I was I wanted to do it over there. He's willing to let me do it from here remotely. But never on any occasion. Have I been in the studio with anybody else? Well, other friends report. So who's another audiobook narrator extraordinary artists. Brilliant. Okay. Nothing else. He's done a lot of good stuff. He lives a couple of miles from here. But he he went into the studio with Michael Sheen was there, Neil was there. Three or four other British actors were there and he had a phenomenal time for his week, but he did some great Ghibli Gilbert I think in the first season, and it's just phenomenal work that he does. He's a very talented guy, but he got the pleasure to meet of meeting people but I went there and it just happened to coincide with a couple of days after my mum died, but I booked it so I went in and did it. But that was the first Lucien the librarian session that I did. And I just sat at a microphone and done I sat beside me, and he read the other lines, and we let the guy you know, I respond, but he'd say he knew what I think. When he was James McAvoy so he I don't know if he'd recorded James at that point. But he, he knew how it was going to be. So he gave me He fed me the lines, and I responded. That was the first season or first act, act two and act three I did here. This is my studio.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, we're gonna get into that a bit later. I'll ask you some questions.
Simon Vance
And, and I just I think we did it remotely. Yeah, we did it. What's the subject?
Toby Ricketts
or something? Yeah, yeah. No,
Simon Vance
you're talking about voiceover Thank you. So we did voice source connect, and with a studio in London. And, again, he read the lines, and I responded with a suitable space, they knew what he likes. There's one part of act three that I did a whole sequence I knew was coming up, he wasn't sure if it was going to be included or not, I can't remember it depended on their choice of what they were going to do, which episodes and so on. And I thought, You know what, I'm gonna go in the studio and have a go just for the heck of one morning I woke up and I thought, Oh, my voice feels good. Ladies with VoiceOver, you know, something that you wake up? Oh, I sound good this morning. So I went in the studio because it was a like a 20 minute read or something like that. And I just launched into it. And I sent it to him. And I said, you know, if you want to use this, I'll do it again. And it came around that they then decided they were going to use that scene. And I thought, you know, Were you okay with that you want the other goes? And he said, Well, why don't we think about this accident or this axis? I went back in the student I did about four or five times more, way more than he needed. And he actually I think he's using the original.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, then some of them away. There's something in that first read that just is fresh. And yeah. And probably your interpretation as well.
Simon Vance
Yeah. And that was not resource Connect. There was just me doing it right. off my back. Because I'm a storyteller. I read books. I don't have a producer in my ear all the time. Yeah. So
Toby Ricketts
more comfortable. Exactly. And the other one I want to pick your brain about was was the the first book in dune because you've been the the narrator for the series in June, that must have picked up in popularity over the last couple of years with with veal nerves, beautiful film that has just come out recently. There were a few interesting things about the production of doom, though, that I found interesting. And I don't I'm not the production because I think it was a fantastic production and your parts were just absolutely sublime. But it differed from other audio books in that it was a mixture of single Narrator doing characters and other chapters were actors doing scenes with narrator in between. And I wonder whether they explained what that how that was going to work to you or or any kind of, you know, detail about how that occurred.
Simon Vance
It's an interesting thing. I think they do a much better job on it today, because I think people are much more experienced in the industry with with multiple voice or whatever they want to do. I'm not sure what their decision was based on. I'm not sure whether the people who did it and I know them at a distance. I've met them. And they're good producers, but they decided to split it so that you know, and I don't know what the thought process was on what scenes are we going to make, like audio drama as it were and what scenes we're going to have single Narrator I got a script saying these are your bits to read. So I went through that and it was great because Scott brick who does some of that who does the voice and he plays portrayed is in the originals and he's he's worked a lot on the dune books with the with Brian's Franco but son Brian, and he got from him. Before we did this, he got all the pronunciations, right? Yeah, all the authentic pronunciations, not like the, the movie was made way back in the 80s, which had all the wrong pronunciations in it. And Frank Herbert was a pocket POC, elliptic, or at least very disappointed anyway. But we had all the right pronunciations. But so we got all the list and pronunciation stuff like that. I just recorded my bit. I wanted to hear what the other voices were doing. Because from my from my point of view, and it's been pointed out to me, sometimes I do a voice because I like to not make a huge character thing. I don't overdo voices, unless it's Dickens or something, and you know, but I want to differentiate them when I give them a sort of voice or accent or whatever. And of course, that wouldn't be when they did the scenes, that wouldn't be the voice of the actor, it is one
Toby Ricketts
interpretation, isn't it? You know, it's two people having a go at the same character, you're going to get a different result. And without those interacting, it's going to be a different result.
Simon Vance
I've never gone back and listened to it. And I'm sorry, I sort I think I'd be too critical of it because it was a little bit of a failing on my part, perhaps or, you know, but it wasn't offered that I should have done some more research on who's Playing what and how are they doing? And I'm not sure any of the actors would have been able to tell me because
Toby Ricketts
I don't I don't think so I think your your parts were absolutely fantastic and your interpretations of the characters were bang on so I think you I think you did a fantastic job in that
Simon Vance
interesting and it's has been successfully one it was my second or third Adi back in the day. And yes, I didn't get because I have a Google alerts if my name pops up somewhere in the world. And months, it was like, you know, the list of best selling audiobooks or something and Dune was was
Toby Ricketts
up there. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, I mean, I only bring it up because he like when I listen to audiobooks, I am hypercritical, because I'm thinking if I was doing this, how would I do it? And like what, you know, what does this all mean? Whereas I'm not. It's difficult when you're in the industry to become completely immersed in it because you're constantly do, do you listen to audiobooks? And do you find it difficult? In terms of you're constantly kind of interrogating the production?
Simon Vance
Well, I don't listen to what I bet very rarely these days, there was a period when I drive, we had a, we originally lived in the Bay Area, San Francisco, my wife and I and my wife has been teaching at UC Irvine down in Orange County for the last 15 years. And eight years ago, we moved down here partially about for about three or four years. We had a house up there and we had a small rental down here. So that will bring together all week she was flying down once a week and flying back. And I was trying, I was exploring Los Angeles and movie work and stuff. And I drive the five or six hours. And because of a very good friend of mine, Grover gardener, who's been in audiobooks about as long as I have. And he does wonderful biographies and stuff, Carnegie and you know, Rockefeller, and all the rest of it, and I love those. Also, around the time, or maybe even bit before that I love I listened to some of Scott's books, because he's a friend. And there was a lovely woman, Kate Fleming, who sadly died. But I was I knew her well. And I listened to some of hers. And I listen to a couple of other books. But like you, it's hard for me to listen. Because I'm if I because most of the people in the industry I know. I mean, I listened to some. I did enjoy listening to books. There are a couple of British actors I liked. And I can't remember the names now. But they did some classics that I enjoyed, that I hadn't done. I didn't mind listening. But no, I I tend not to because it's difficult. And also, I haven't got the time. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
exactly. If you're not commuting or doing some kind of long distance or, or yard work, which is my favorite time to listen to audiobooks. And you know, I found I mean, I actually have the opposite effect as well. Sometimes when I find someone who's so good, and I like so much that it actually starts to give me other strings to my bow, I find I start to learn things from them through their interpretations. And Derek Perkins is one of those who who's done a number of audiobooks who I nonfiction, and I just I loved his nonfiction delivery and really took lots of inspiration from it in a way. So it's kind of it can be, can be quite freeing in a way and to find new ways of doing things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you happen to sort of have a favorites? Or do you have genres that you sort of specialize in? Be it fiction or nonfiction? You sort of pigeon holed? Or do you try and keep it nice and broad so that you are applicable to more chops.
Simon Vance
I'd like to keep it broad I did. Because when I came into the industry, we did everything. In early 90s. I got everything. A lot of things quite rightfully are now going to people who are more appropriate for the characters and for the parts and so on and so forth. I think what I did was was good. It was never a caricature and stuff like that. I remember doing a piece an author had written the piece set in the Caribbean was an English, it was like five different characters, and one was an English detective, and there was some locals and stuff. So I researched accents and did the modern, the author was so impressed and loved what I done. But I'd never be asked to do that kind of book now, quite frankly, looking at things differently now. So, but I did everything. I do get concerned apart. Partly three, three fantasy books in a row is driving me crazy. I don't want any more of these. I just don't do them anymore. And there's it's just one publisher, and that's basically a lot of what they do is self published books. But for my main people, they send me everything across the board. Of course being English. I did all the Charles Dickens and you know,
Toby Ricketts
great expectations. I think it in Sherlock Holmes.
Simon Vance
Sherlock Holmes. Yeah, yeah, a lot of love that stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's, I've done so many books. People say well, what's your favorite? I know you're probably gonna
Toby Ricketts
just put a line through that question.
Simon Vance
I don't know. I mean, yeah, we'll get to that question. Yeah, I've got a few that I've really enjoyed over the years. But yeah, I'm actually trawl up and all the rest of it. I've done all those Thomas Hardy's and stuff. I mean, there's still probably some I haven't done back in the day you see back in the 90s and the aughts. And before it really took off. Most of the the audience, the customer base was libraries. That was where they were aiming. So it was all the classics. These days, it is changed so that it's new books, any new book has got to have an audio version. So that's where the pressure is now. Which is a shame, because I think there's still a lot of classic books out there that I would love
Toby Ricketts
to do. Yeah, especially movies, when there's movies involved as well. Like,
Simon Vance
pick him up. Yeah, I mean, if there's something they'll pick it up, you know, so it'll get get pushed and so on. But yeah, the new books definitely. Yeah, they want them done yesterday.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, totally. So going into some sort of the craft the tech in the business of this is kind of the the, the business end of the of the discussion where we talk about the different sort of components that make up a sort of a you know, your, your method with when it comes to characters because characters are a big part of fictional audiobooks, possibly non fictional, but not not generally. What's your method in terms of how do you keep it consistent? Do you go through and do all the character lines at the same time they could do it or that kind of thing? Do you research accents? Do you engage with the author to say how they'd like it done? Was it just your interpretation? What kind of is your approach? All of the above? That was easy.
Simon Vance
Moving on. Let me see what just you threw in the thing about nonfiction and it's one of the rules is really generally speaking, you don't cook put voices on nonfiction because you're trying to do real people. So you know, there's been a time there have been times when it's okay, you know, Chilean butchers talk like that. And we have had them on the beach where you don't want to overdo it. But the things like that, but often you got big up people from around the world presidents prime ministers, whatever, and kings and queens you don't want to be if they're in quotes. You don't want to give them voices because it's just distracting. So that's one of the rules that whenever I say rules, I always remember Prunella scales and actress in Britain, who played Basil Fawlty, his wife and Fawlty Towers, wonderful. Timothy West's wife, Samuel West's mother. She said, she gave me a list of things for spoken English and poetry, one of the things at the top of both them was these, these rules are for the sake of making sense, and so on and so forth. Also break these rules for the sense of making sense and whatever. So there are no rules. So when I say a rule is you can break it, but is it guide the way of starting in character voices? Yeah, I mean, I remember we're just going back and going back to the beginning, when I did audiobooks for the blind, sitting in the green room, with actors on the west end, I was in radio, and there were people from radio for three and four and an actor's and stuff. Sitting around, there was one fellow who insisted no character voices whatsoever, he was one of the old school. And that was a that was prevalent for some time, even here, I think. But uh, but generally speaking, I was always somebody who loved putting character voices in and, you know, for the way the book for the book to make sense. Because quite often, you have a long page of dialogue, and you don't know who said what, and unless you give them a little bit of on, if you've got the page in front of you, you can reference back and go, that's him speaking or, you know, you get a sense of what they're saying they give you a guide to who it is who's speaking, but I think carrier devices help and the thing about audiobooks is I don't want to get I don't have my audience thinking too hard about things like that. So I want it to flow I want people to understand and to be keep with me, you know, not, I don't read fast, but I read faster than some, but I like to keep it you know, so that they can follow the thread. So that's the main reason for doing character voices. Now how i i do them. I tend to I know Jim Dale, who is an extraordinary narrator and he did all the Harry Potter's over here, the US Harry Potter's Stephen Fry did the ones in the UK but Jim Dale would break down the characters before he even starts the book, and he'll work on the voices before he even starts the book. I tend to and I think that's a wonderful way of doing things very organized, but I'm not very awkward to entertain my guide from the moment I know I understand who the people are I understand the background. I was mentioned Dickens here because he always did a wonderful thing where he named his characters in a certain way Mr. Jolly so you know. Yeah, this is there's often a little clue in that but also they often spend a paragraph describing before they open their mouth, and as an actor, that's all gone. I mean, it's just wonderful. It feeds you and, and then I open my mouth and what comes out is what comes out in the moment most of the time. And I don't at that point, I get an idea in my head of what they look like. Mm hmm. Sometimes it's it's not so much these one though still these days. I'd actually put a face on it as an actor if I'm doing an Alec Guinness face. I can't I did not used to quote this. Some say Alec Guinness because I could do an Alec Guinness ish voice. Like think of this kind of school teacher was not a Guinness type. No, me doing an Alec Guinness voice you probably wouldn't know it was Alec Guinness. But that doesn't matter. Hmm. John Wayne voice it may not sound like John Wayne or something. But in my head. It's what comes out.
Toby Ricketts
It's an attitude.
Simon Vance
I hope I don't. character isn't attitude. It's also the way I nail the name onto that guy's forehead reference. Yeah. So he's kind of a visual reference, you know? Yeah. So it's, you know, 20 chapters later on and go, Oh, that was Alec Guinness. You know, when when Dr. Smith walks into the room again, oh, it's Alec Guinness. And I've got the voice. It's there. And that's that's the way it is, if you're doing one book, I have to talk about this. Because I'm doing this, as I say, this fantasy book, which is a fifth in a series. And I haven't done one of these in about a year and a bit. So I had to go through the script and find all the people who opened their mouths by reference, the old ones. In the first nine chapters, there's like two and a half pages of names, but 80 names, and then I go back to the other books and match up the voices. I use their eyes, and it slowly comes back to me. And I remember people who are organized, make voice files at the time, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you look great on that. And I actually, I have done it on times. And then I lose the voice voice file. Because it's two years between books. And I go, where did that one go? I thought I kept I guess I didn't save it. I guess I trashed it along with something else. So but but generally, the way I I remember them during the book is that I see the actors on the stage.
Toby Ricketts
Hmm, interesting. And do you as part of your sort of research? Do you cold read books? Or do you pre read them? So that you know what's coming up effectively?
Simon Vance
Yeah, I did, like various the golden rule, when you're beginning audiobooks for a beginner is read everything, read it, at least once
Toby Ricketts
pre read it. So So get familiar with the text? Yeah, yeah.
Simon Vance
And I don't do that. And I've never been one to go in detail, except to the two different things. One is, when I had to go to a studio, and I had a producer, or a director and an engineer or something they're relying on me Time is of essence, I would pre read the book, so I knew what was going on. Because otherwise you're wasting people's time. If you're sitting back knowing now, what shall I do here? The other occasion is, if it is a mystery, I need to know who the good guys and bad guys are. If it's if it's a real sort of thriller of that kind, it's crucial to know that most books you know, I don't wing it. I mean, things like the dickens and the trollops on the Hardys. I would actually get quick notes. You know, the SparkNotes. Always and then just go through Oh, yeah, okay. Okay.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, quick, catchy cheat.
Simon Vance
Yeah, I saw a thread on Facebook. I didn't go on very much these days. But I saw a thread where somebody is going on, I'm starting in this business, I'm, I'm reading my books two or three times I've heard somebody say they read it four or five times how many times you think I should read it? Like, no, no, no, stop, stop. I get it. I get it. People are nervous about that. And I think you need to read it as many times as you need to be comfortable. I happen to be a good sight reader. I trust my instincts. I've been doing it for so many years, you know, 40 years or something. So I trust my instincts. So I can I can jump on a page, and I'm into it and give me a few clues about the character and boom, I can do the voices. Also, as I said, if I'm in a studio, I will pre read and plan stuff much more if I'm here, which is 99% of the time. I've got time to if I get into a chapter and I've I've given somebody a voice that I suddenly don't like I can go back and start again. Just me it's just my time. I'm the one who's penalized by my sloppiness. That said, as I say, if you're a beginner, it really pays to to do the research and to you know, have a good idea in your head, as I say until you feel comfortable. And if that's one reading, go with it if you don't because somebody else done something in a certain way doesn't mean you have to do it that way you can experiment. I think that's a good thing. And that's the thing about teaching. You know, this is the experience of the teacher that takes, in my experience, it takes somebody to two readings to really get comfortable with it. Try it. And if that's too much, for me, I like. And this is a lazy man's argument, I suppose. But I like the sense of surprise. And I know, as actors, we can be surprised every night of the week with the same lines in a play. So, you know, it's an acting skill to be surprised, but I still like for my to feed me. Otherwise, books become very dull and boring. If I've read three times I read every book three times before I get in front of the microphone. I will not enjoy this work.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. And you'll be able to hear that in your voice. Yeah, I'm more likely that
Simon Vance
than the fact that yeah, that because I can, you know, yeah, yeah, it's that I don't think the fact that I am acting surprised. Yeah, you'll hear it. Yeah.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, I one of the best quotes I I ever heard was be prepared, but not rehearsed, is that rehearsal thing kind of gets rid of some of the energy that you bring to a text when you first are interrogating it, it's got that
Simon Vance
reading, you know, when you driving, you begin driving and you you behind the wheel, and you're looking about two yards down the road, or meters, depending on what system you're using. And it's really how gardening, because, and then you get to a corner and get, Oh, I get to sit in the corner.
Toby Ricketts
Everything about everything. Yeah, everything. Whereas,
Simon Vance
you know, as a driver of years experience, you're looking way down the road. And as a narrator, that's sort of the way you've got to be, you can't be looking at the words. It's a weird thing to say this, but you I'm not reading the words, I'm looking beyond the words absolutely being processed in the brain, because that's the way you get to what's beyond? Well, there's, there's a whole world beyond that the words are basically suggesting, and the way through to the author's mind is that way, but if you're plugging each word in, this is where you get the awful beginners thing of emphasizing too many words. That's that's one thing. And, and, you know, emphasizing every v and a, you know, instead of going Oh, yeah. You know, people just get that will express every single word.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. So it's more about, you know, taking a step back and trying to get, like, communicate concepts, rather than the language itself. Like the language is just a vehicle for the concept. And it's, it's worth, you know, trying to say, yeah, yeah, very good. Very good. And just quickly, do you have much contact with authors at all? Because I imagine people think that you're, you know, sitting down having coffees with the authors every morning before you start recording, but it's probably not the case. For many if not,
Simon Vance
some of them. I mean, it's difficult. Dickens has never answered any of my emails. But when they're alive, they're usually very happy to chat, discuss things. And I do like to be in touch if I can be. Publishers are very careful. They don't want to rate us they don't. They're generally protective of that separation. Yeah, they like to be the middle people. And I totally understand that. That said, I've been around long enough. I just want to talk to the author. I mean, trust me, trust me, man. I'll be okay. You know, I'm not gonna embarrass you. But part of the part of the issue was, I don't know if it's still the case now. But they used to get upset because narrators would call an author directly, and the author go will go, Oh, I didn't know that. Make an audible. I wanted to read this. And then issues, publisher and whatever. So that was one of the reasons for having that boundary between you. I've always liked to contact the author if the book needs it.
Toby Ricketts
For pronunciations, and for context, perhaps
Simon Vance
just Yeah, I. I think I mean, I'm thinking specifically of the book I did. I did the prestige by Christopher Priest, it was made into a, he's a wonderful author and was a friend for years, I sort of lost touch with him, he moved off to the west country in England, and I haven't seen him for years, but I did the prestige. And I tried to contact him, and it didn't get any response. And it's basically I think there's three, four different, I think, five, again, five characters. And I don't want to give away a story, but I launched into it because I couldn't get in touch with them. And I was quite a long way through. It's only a seven hour but now it's four or five hours, when he finally came back to me. So sorry, I was traveling in France. And I had a phone call with him. And he gave me such I can't even remember the details of it, but he gave me a different perspective on it. I just threw out everything I'd done and started again. I don't do that very often because it was time consuming. But that was extraordinarily useful. pronounciation is obvious. I have a lot of time. I've spent a lot of time on the phone with people or emailed them generally. And got a long list of pronunciations that's often with the fantasy books and stuff like that. And, you know, some good friendships that come out of that. I'm doing the book after this one is by one of my favorite living authors guy, Gavriel Kay who's just, I love his writing. I just love it. And I can't remember how when we first met, but I ended up he, he's sets up in different parts of the world and writes for, you know, a month or something. And he was in Monterey, and I went, my wife and I went down and stayed overnight. And he introduced me to the Negroni cocktail. This was many groaning No, I won't go. And I'll give you the recipe. Oh, it's um, and I'm his sort of go to VI. He insists on me for all his books. And this next one is a joy. And that's actually one that is not complex or anything? Well, it's not a simple book. But I am sitting and reading it ahead of time. Whereas I wouldn't necessarily put the time aside in the detail of this one, just because it's such a, it's a really deep book, and I want to get it right. And it's personal. It's personal. Yeah, yeah. But I will always I will reach out if the author's alive and is interested in chatting, I will try to contact them and get some because they can give you insights and so on. Beyond pronunciations, and stuff, I am pronunciations quite often just you send a list to the publisher and they send a list to the author who then sends it back. I'd like the author to read them actually.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say cuz I mean, it's it's horrible trying to get a phonetic version because of course, in different accents, phonetics have completely different meanings. So it's, it's a challenge. So moving on to the technology, the tech space, because you record a lot of your own stuff, you run your own studio, I can see in the background I can like I like to see what I can get in the background. You You used to have a Whisper Room, I think or something like that. And your videos on your website, you have a sort of one of those booths with a window and stuff. But that looks like more like an inbuilt one. Now. This is my, this is some of the
Simon Vance
cool secrets. No, this is this. This whole room was built. Two years ago, see my forehead. This is this is how I used to talk to my mother on Zoom was always like this. Yeah, I had this built in the garden. It was actually completed two years ago, almost exactly. This, I'd head up north in San Francisco, and it's a six by four vocal booth. So it is exactly as you say, one with a window in it. Yeah. And it fits nicely in the middle here.
Toby Ricketts
Oh, that's nice. And then inside of the big room, air conditioning duct as well, which is which many people would be like, I wish I had good air conditioning but important for you.
Simon Vance
Well, there are times it hasn't. I mean, I bought the on the top there there is that that box? Yeah, that box there on the top there is the is the sort of allows air in and out as a filter sort of keeps the sound. It was never that successful. But I managed to insulate it. This it goes in in one of these one of these boxes here and out on one of the others. The room itself is pretty cool. I have a mini mini vac. I think they call it on the wall up there. Yeah, which I can run and it makes barely any noise. So that's good. Yeah. So by the time this is a double walled booth. So by the time I'm in here, I kind of put a light on
Toby Ricketts
you. And you got the is that a UAC seven.
Simon Vance
It's a UID seven the story behind that I had a I started off with a $50 shore 30 years ago, and I ended up going to a nine month TLM 103, which is pretty standard. And I found that what I found it allowed too much sort of surrounding noise and it didn't please me a hugely I went with a Sennheiser 416. Is that is that that's on now. And again, I liked it because that is what I experienced at Blackstone audio studios when I went out there some time to record and I thought it was nice and clean. But it's clean.
Toby Ricketts
Exactly. It's very, it's kind of harsh.
Simon Vance
So I started looking around and I had a couple of other ones I tested and then I thought oh, I'll try the u 87. I hope you got I don't like it because it's expensive.
Toby Ricketts
Here. There it is. Exactly. Mine's in my drawer at the moment because I actually bought one on that basis. And I tried on my studio and it just doesn't sound good in this room. But I'm building a new studio, which will be open in the next month. And I hope I really hope since I've invested in this mic that it's going to it's it's going to sound good because I found it was it was picking up again too much ambience of this room and that the forensics is so much more directional. So that was working better. But um, but yeah, do you do you enjoy the technology behind studios and recording?
Simon Vance
Um, yeah, in a way. I mean, I'm not. I'm definitely not technophobic. I love it. I just don't remember. So Matt, you know, you set something up, you know, I've got my I got stuff here. This is I got a Mac Mini on Apollo's two with twin solo, whatever it is, I actually use a grace. That's the one the M one of three. I've got PreSonus this is one, the ADL 700 valve one which I'd actually don't use, right? Yeah. But he wants to buy one. Yeah, so I've got that's what the thing is, I you set these things up and you get them working. And then five years later on something goes wrong going, how on earth did I do that? Yeah.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, consistency is a massive thing. If they want to come and do a chapter or or an update or something, then sometimes, you know, it's, I suppose you basically deliver them as one thing and then that's it. You know, you very rarely would you
Simon Vance
changes. I mean, I never change. I've never changed my settings. Yeah, they were set years ago. You know, if I brushed against it and knocked all the things, I'd be like, Oh, my God, how did I I think I did photographic once a few years ago. But no, I mean, in terms because I have to do pickups, I have to do corrections that have to fit into the book. So basically, I don't I never change it. I experimented with various different positions on the microphone. And then
Toby Ricketts
and we're sitting on the on the u 87. The cardioid pattern or figure eight or the Omni?
Simon Vance
I'm saying that sort of thing.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, the kidneys sort of shaped one. And what some audio software are using to run cuz I didn't recognize it from the videos on the website. Yeah.
Simon Vance
Well, this is back when because I think I was one of the first people to use to record directly to a computer because we used dat and a well cassettes, in 9394 cassettes, audio cassettes, and then that and then I know some people went to a dat I didn't, I went straight to a hard drive in 1996 because I was just going through the separation and I needed an I thought I'll try this because I I do love the technical side of things. I love experimenting with things like that when I can. So I got one, it was like a four megabyte RAM, and 120 gigabyte now 120 megabyte hard drive, you know, and it will take, I'd record for an hour, and it will take half an hour to save their dog in 1996 97 and a half an hour, I'd finished recording my hour, set it to save it and I'd walk away and hope we didn't have a power outage or anything. But But at that time, I was looking for the software. And it was like I didn't know, there was no internet to go and ask I think I did have a worldwide web box or something that allowed me to access but nobody, there was nobody selling anything, anything no advice. And I went into a music store and they sold me Cubase which is a music editing software, which had as a tiny part of it Wavelab 1.0. And both Wavelab 1.0. And I stayed with Steinberg ever since. So this is Steinberg's or something?
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, so I've definitely heard of people using Wavelab it's uncommon, but it's not unheard of.
Simon Vance
I really liked it. And I I've tried to go with Pro Tools from time to
Toby Ricketts
time Pro Tools is too complicated for most complicated and
Simon Vance
it never did. And I don't, I don't know, if you well, you know, there's I record straight, I do not, I don't do punch and roll, rock and roll or whatever they call it. I tried that at times. But my argument about sticking with it is I have more control this way. Because I'm I worked in radio for years. So I edited tapes with a little razor blade, and so on. And so I know to listen for where you can edit.
Toby Ricketts
Totally, yeah, that's such a skill. And it's, it's almost becomes an instinct, like because I'm the same now I've a very specific way of doing of doing cuts and, and I can almost edit without listening now because I know the shape of my voice and where I will pick up from etc. So,
Simon Vance
so it's, you know, the little yellow pencil back in the day, but I. So I find that with Pro Tools, you know, you've got to consolidate the thing afterwards, and it does the crossfades. And you really have very little control over you know, you might cut half breaths and all the rest of it, which is what the publishers you'd take these in, the engineers will then be cleaning up. But also you end up using the last take, I mean, I know there's options because it stores them all on the side. When you do retakes and stuff like that. You can send the whole package but with uh with this, if I I can edit like you say I can edit in the middle of sentences on C's and D's and F's and Ks and all the rest of it and the very beginning of words middle. But also if I do three takes of a sentence say I can take the beginning of the second sentence and the you know, the end of the second sentence or the beginning of the third take and put them together and I can clean it up that way if it's yes, most of the time. I'm just doing straight edits.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, I'm exactly the same. I just use the to track editor and then just keep it simple. And then and you have a method of noting visually when you make a mistake like a like a click or a dog click or something.
Simon Vance
I have a I don't even see on here. But if I put a little a on here, because that's tomorrow's file I'm going to do I get a little modified. If I record Yeah, so that's, that's it in record. And I've got a little Marker button on the side, it's over here. It's gone. I'll just drop the marker, I'll make a fluff. Yeah, I'll do that now. Do it again, or whatever. I mean, when I stop that out of the way, there's a couple of yellow markers on the right. Yeah. There's, I've got so you know, my I added on my iMac over there. And I've got a programmed mouse, and I just hit one button, and it jumps to the next marker. Oh, that's great. Yeah. another button that erases it cuts it out. I've got various shortcuts, which makes editing really quick. I'm very absolutely
Toby Ricketts
as long as you are disciplined enough and, and have programmed yourself to actually when you do mistake, put those in because it takes a while to build up the instinct of like, I've made a mistake. I'll do this. And then later on, I'll know exactly what it is.
Simon Vance
Well, the hardest part and I still deal with it is, you know, the when you've got the record thing up there, it's a very small little corner, little button to press that. Does it mean, sometimes the mouse drifts off? So I'll think I'm clicking it or not. And the publishers fortunately know that from me occasionally. And they know I do that. And it's very straightforward. Retake Yes.
Toby Ricketts
So you you kind of have options, depending on who you're working with, don't you whether you provide just the raw session, whether you do edited versions, as well as increase the time obviously, sit back over here. Yeah, by all means.
Simon Vance
Everything the Yeah, I. Yeah, I mostly do the editing. It's rare. I think there are a few occasions when I work for Penguin Random House, the one I'm doing for guy Gabriel case through Penguin Random House, and they want a producer on the line. So I'll have a director, listen to me, and he'll be making he or she'll be making notes. And I won't need to drop a marker or anything. So I basically just record, send it off to them, which is the way they work in their studios when I got into a woodland hills in Los Angeles. A couple? Well, not for a while I did a George RR Martin a couple of years ago. And that was the last time I was in the studio.
Toby Ricketts
It does feel like a wonderful treat. When you go into any you literally just reading experience,
Simon Vance
I have to say I'm I, I get very nervous. For this book, I know the first few chapters is going to be a little difficult because I'm aware somebody is listening. And one of the joys when I'm working alone, it's nobody's listening. Yeah, but being a studio is a different is a whole different atmosphere when you're in the studio, and you can just, yeah, you know that somebody's taking care of it. They're taking care of the levels, and they'll listen for everything. I don't know that I don't do a better job sometimes when I'm home on my own. Yeah, cuz I'm very, very judgmental. Yeah. And I will retake more. Because I hear it in my, if I'm letting somebody else take care of it. They're not always stopping me when I think you know, because I'm not thinking in that way. I'm just reading, you know, in the story, telling the story and so on. But I'm not thinking in a sort of directorial way. I know, there are people who don't like that sort of, they're having to think of three different things. But I'm actually quite capable of three things when I'm doing narration, and exactly
Toby Ricketts
the same. Yeah, exactly. And live sessions. I'm happy to run the recording and all the other stuff as well. It's kind of exhilarating. And if anyway, I'm very weary of time, because we've we've been talking for 65 minutes, it's been so wonderful. But I've been carried away. So I've got a few more questions, if you've got a few more minutes to to indulge me. Absolutely, yes, we barely started. Yeah. So this is more around the the business of audiobooks, because like not many people really get to get an insight into it until they actually become an audiobook narrator. And, like, how does the business of audiobooks work? Obviously, you've got relationships with publishers, which are probably your most important asset, and then you've got independent authors and people approaching you directly and whether they're whether you do like, you know, you record it for free, and then share the royalties. There's all kinds of options out there these days. So I'm gonna take us through some of those options.
Simon Vance
I can try I again, one of the reasons I don't do a lot of coaching and stuff is because I don't have I don't have the tools that are needed to begin, you know, I rely I could rely just on the publishers. They have come to me over the years with Blackstone audio for many years, and then I did go into New York, on for an APA, audio Publishers Association event. They run a conference every year, and you'd get a chance to meet publishers and so on and so forth. I met someone a couple of years later tanto asked me to do stuff in books on tape, we became Random House and then Penguin Random as so and then somebody else in the industry will call me from another publishers and so on. So I could just work for publishers, which is of course, if you're starting in the business, that's nearly impossible. You've got to get something out there. The one thing that again, this is what I don't really know the full details, but I have worked through a CX a couple of times. But I know some people go through a CX, because it's gonna be a bit dodgy. There are a lot of pitfalls. I would recommend going onto Facebook and joining some of their groups. I hate to recommend Facebook
Toby Ricketts
is a meeting place, isn't it? And like you say, like me, especially with COVID like the conferences just weren't happening or aren't happening. And it this it still happened the audio book conferences or Yeah, I
Simon Vance
believe it's happening soon. I'm not attending this year, but I think it's online. Right. But I but a CX, you audition you've got a you do everything yourself at home, and you can do royalty share, and but there are a lot of scams out there, you got to keep an eye on so I would highly recommend researching and maybe even just spending some time with an experienced narrator. Not me. But somebody who teaches or somebody who coaches who can can i Oh, you can you can learn by looking on Facebook, there is a great website called the narrator's roadmap and caring things. I think I can sorry, my
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, I think you have mentioned on your website there abouts. You've got a section for for sort of people who want to find out more
Simon Vance
when right isn't? Yeah, I mean, the website is something I got redone last year. I haven't touched it in a year, but it still got some information on that. Yeah, the writers roadmap that is narrated roadmap for search. I think they have a free level, I think she started charging to get into the real weeds of the thing. But I think there's a lot of good contacts you can get from that. And it gives you a lot of information and things to watch out for, it's really important to pay attention. Because there are people who put stuff out on on a CX recording, there are some horror stories of people recording a whole book and then finding the person who asked them to do it didn't have the rights. Law and given away, you know, because especially, you know, I would do a 15 hour book in a week or week and a half. And people are beginning might spend a month doing a book like that, and then find that they're not going to get any money for it because the book will never be allowed out. Yes, there will be things to watch out for in the business. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
yeah, absolutely. And you describe it on your site, as you know, the least well paid job in voiceover, which in my experience is kind of the case in terms of word count. Anyway, it's not like you get exactly $10,000 for 10,000 words. So it's, it's kind of a labor of love. Like I mean, the conditions are a lot better in a way in terms of if you love reading books, then you you know, you get something from it aside from the money which I think is quite nice a lot like I mean, I do I'm starting to do a lot of documentary work. And I'm loving it because I'm learning so much from doing the documentaries it's really enriching my life in that sense as well as you know, doing the work and getting paid for it. So is it the same with audiobooks do? Do you find you you are very learned from all of these titles? Very much.
Simon Vance
So. It is exactly that reason I fell into it because I just love doing it. And I didn't mind I didn't say eight years for charity one afternoon a week I get my time up because I loved reading the books. always enjoyed reading. It's it's not well paid. And you know, elearning is so much better paid because you aren't paid by the word in elearning. So many other areas of voiceovers do a commercial you can get 1000s and stuff but but audiobooks is it's it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, it's the joy of doing it. A lot of people I wonder about the people coming into the industry and expecting to make a living. And it takes a long time to get to that point. I mean, we're fortunate the union in the States has come in very strong in the last decade, I I'm proud to say I helped somewhat in that because we're industry as part of some of the publishers who came in some people came in around the time of audible being bought by Amazon. And because they could sell stuff to Amazon and they were paying some ridiculously low rates like $50 for an hour finished out. And that's just not livable, you can't live off that given many hours of research, you might have to put at least a minimum wage, or you're ending up being paid less than minimum wage. Yeah. So the union has come in and done a very good job of minimal minimal level of pay. And the publishers have been very good in that respect. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
fantastic. So coming towards the end, I ended up bring up a question a slightly different question than the one I crossed out, which is what do you think your best work is not necessarily your favorite but if people were to jump in to your sort of career, what would what's your best foot forward?
Simon Vance
Well, I didn't love the dickens always let the Dickens and great expectations you mentioned that one was I mean, in some ways, it's easy. For me to go to the ones that won awards, because that's had confirmation from elsewhere. Yeah, that I do, like I did. With Nicholas Nickleby was, was lovely. Because one of the early days, oh God, who was the author lives in Greensboro, North Carolina. Anyway, he did a blog about how he was quite a well known. He's a he's a well known author, and he did a blog about how he never understood his book when he's given it at school. And then he listened to my audiobook and it made all's make complete sense. And that's something that audiobook narrators do. Because people don't read a lot. There are people who do have difficulty reading. And the thing is, if you're reading something like if you're American reading Dickens or trollop, it's written in an English way that the language the structure of the sentences are hard to pull off the page for some people. Whereas a Narita actually brings it to life in a way that you understand more easily. So things like the dickens a wonder that sort of was the big one for me early on was The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. That's always been very well respected. And a lot of people will say about that reading it, they couldn't, they couldn't get into it at the beginning, because there's a long stretch at the beginning of the book. But listening to me, give it character really helped them into it. And that got me a huge number of fans. I loved Alan Moore's Jerusalem. I did. Alan Moore is the author of many graphic novels, V for Vendetta. And several others I have in my bookcase. But in watchmen and things like that, he's he's eccentric. He wrote this magnum opus, it's seven, it's 70 hours long. Wow. And when he wrote it, I got the call somebody, I think, who was a good idea. I recorded books. And I called Neil Gaiman. Because to call him I emailed him, because I know he knew our more well. And I said, Hey, I'm doing this when he said, What do you want me to introduce you to add in more so and I actually flew to England. I can't I got in touch with him. There's a whole long story there. But he's a bit eccentric, doesn't have a regular phone or anything. He's sort of off the grid. But I had a little bit of time before I started the book. And I recognize what this book meant to him. It was based in his hometown of Northampton. And I, I flew out on a Monday, I met him on the Wednesday, flew back on the first day was in the studio on the way to, you know, off my own bad, I pay for that myself, publish it and pay for it. And I love that book. 70 hours long, every chapter is sort of written in the style of a different author. But all the stories based on the history of Northampton is in Northampton. I'm saying that right. Yes. I slip up if I go wrong, and I apologize. But that's a lovely one.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Yeah. 70 hours is, it's a that's a very long time to you know, to keep it fresh and keep people's attention. Is that the longest audiobook you would have done?
Simon Vance
Oh, ah, yeah, it's close to it. I did. Oh, dance music a time Anthony Paul did a series of books back in the well, he started writing them quite early on, he finished in the 70s. He wrote 12 novels separated into quartets now, but it's all as Paul called Dance the music of time. And it's basically follows the group of people, one particular person and his group through the pre war pre first world war through to the 70s. And it seems ordinary historical document to look at English society, a certain sort of level of it. That I think is 86 hours. And of course, they've complete Sherlock Holmes. I did all that in one go. And that's 60 or 70 hours. So these ones yeah, those are the ones I've done in blocks. I mean, there's then there's a series like this one, I'm finishing 27 hours, which is the fifth one. And each of the other books has been like 15 or 18 or 20 hours. So it gets out there eventually, but I'd had that separated, you know, so that's separate. Yeah, but yeah, some big ones. I would reckon. I mean, the Guy Gavriel Kay books are a joy and T Garner is a fantastic one of his early ones. There's so many and Christopher Priest book I mentioned earlier, I love doing that and how fell occurred to me and the books that I Yeah. Oh, that one? dimension that one. It's very hard. I mean, it depends what people want to listen to what kind of books they want to listen to. It's very hard to recommend anything in particular, but the ones I've enjoyed have been those Jerusalem dance the music of time. Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
Toby Ricketts
Fantastic, and well. We've taken up a lot of your time with this interview. So thank you so much for your time. Just before we go, there's lots of guitars on the wall behind you. And do you play the guitar as well?
Simon Vance
Yeah, yes. Well, I, I've had a guitar since I was a kid. I've sort of come back to in the last decade, I suppose. I've played I had a couple one. There's one there that I got in. That's less for coffee from Antalya, which is one of the Japanese makes, but it's the oldest one I've got. But I had that one for years. And I had a band when I was a student. I played a lot. And then I just sort of I've been messing around ever since. And then a few years ago, I promised myself I wanted a Les Paul, because that was when I grew up in the 60s watching everybody, Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton. They're all playing les Paul's, I wanted one so and I thought, well, I got in some late 50s. And I thought, Well, when I can really play well, and I will deserve a Les Paul, I'll go get one. And I hit 16 went Screw this. play that well. So I bought one. And that's, that's on the wall in the corner over there. Yeah. And when I got the Les Paul and I started doing online lessons, I liked the Telecaster. And then oh, my wife and kids got me the HSS Stratocaster PRs as a 10 top, that's the blue one, a really nice, beautiful piece. And I've got this was a latest joy. It's the Gibson 1959 reissue. He has 335 pounds beautiful, which is gorgeous. And I'm doing online lessons where the guy was online because we don't meet up but he's in LA. And I'm finding, it's great. It's a wonderful challenge, but I'm really finding the basic stuff. I forgot how did how does my finger do that? So it's embarrassing. So I'm embarrassed by how I'm one of those guys. There's a name for me, I can't know what it is for the kind of people who have more money than guitar talent. And I'm actually getting better and better and I got a I've got a drum machines and things. I got a drum kit around the corner as a bass. I've got up on the house too. So I think I can play I'm always self deprecating that I can play someone I love. I love that. And also, you know, I'm getting older. And one of the things they say about keeping the brain alive is challenging yourself. Exactly. Yeah. You know, same old, same old, same old. I mean, the books, I did all the books, but I'm sort of aging them out a little bit not doing as many hours a day as I used to. So don't have time for things like this.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. Is there anything else you wanted to cover that we haven't done the interview?
Simon Vance
I'll discuss Ukraine
Toby Ricketts
can spend a very long time talking and we should do in the second episode.
Simon Vance
Say hi to your mom will do. Absolutely.
Toby Ricketts
Absolutely. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you for sharing some of your wisdom and the stories from behind the scenes of audiobook wealth. It's been a pleasure.
Simon Vance
Thanks, Toby. It was a joy